Your Baby, Your Body, Your Birth: Doula Work with Natalie Evans

Contact Natalie Evans through Instagram @pure.essence.doulacare 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Natalie: From Mom to Doula
• 8:21 Trust and Vulnerability in the Birth Room
• 15:38 Advocating for Empowered Birth Choices
• 22:32 Self-Care After Supporting Births
• 29:51 The Power of Community Among Doulas
• 35:45 Trusting Your Body's Wisdom

Transcript

Deborah: 0:13

Hey Mamas, you're listening to Tend and Befriend, a podcast about women's mental and physical health. This is Debra. I'm a mom of two, a labor and birth coach and birth advocate, a health professional, and today I'm your host. Let's dive into today's episode. Any information you hear or that is suggested or recommended on these episodes is not medical advice.

Natalie Evans: 0:42

Hi everyone, welcome to Tend and Befriend. I'm Debra, your host, your doula, your slightly tired but still fired up birth worker, and today I have the joy of introducing you to someone whose warmth and strength I admire so deeply Natalie Evans, one of the wonderful doulas in our Pelvic Love Doula Agency. Natalie brings a quiet power and unwavering care to her clients, and today we're going to talk about why she does this work, how she holds space and what she's learned walking beside birthing families. Natalie, thank you so much for being here, thanks so much for having me. Tell me a little bit about yourself, who you are, your family, your friends, where you're from.

Natalie Evans: 1:21

I live in Stony Point. I have a son. He's going to be two in November, which is crazy. My partner and I have been together 10 years. We have a dog, which is beautiful and crazy and I recently in January I took the plunge and did my doula training and I sat with it for so long before and I was like this is what I'm meant to be doing, so I am doing that. I resigned from my regular job at 18 months postpartum and I told them I'm not coming back and yeah, here I am.

Natalie Evans: 1:59

Yeah, yeah, when you say you sat on it for a little while, what does that mean?

Natalie Evans: 2:04

Even before I got pregnant, I have this awe of birth. What women go through postpartum, that period as well. It was like this little tug in the back of my mind like, do this, do this? Like this little whisper, and I would shut it down for so long I was like, oh, that's not for me. And then, once I had my son, it just I couldn't ignore it. It was you wanted it, I wanted it, and I had all these little signs and yeah, and then I just did it and I'm so happy I did what was your first introduction to a doula?

Deborah: 2:40

was it when you got pregnant? Or obviously you knew about it, but you're saying it was tugging at you. What was your first introduction to like doula work or a birth worker? I want to say just doula work, because a birth worker is, you know, is very vast.

Natalie Evans: 2:54

Yeah, I think when I was just prepping for, like, my delivery, I wanted a very natural experience. Physiological birth was what I was going for. I dove into all the podcasts and everything, and in every podcast everyone was like my doula, my doula. So in all the birth stories I was listening to, it was my doula this, my doula that. So I'm like Google. I think I need one of these for my birth. How?

Natalie Evans: 3:18

do you get one of these things? Yeah, that's awesome. That's usually when most people find them right One day, or if they've known there's one in their circle of friends. Yes, before you have a child that's usually when you find it is when you're pregnant. Yeah, and how are you feeling about it so far into your journey?

Natalie Evans: 3:37

It's amazing, yeah, and it's such a privilege and just an honor and it's not something I take lightly To be welcomed into someone oh, I get emotional I've been talking about it, but like to be welcomed into someone's birth space during this like huge transitional moment in your life yeah, like you're in your most vulnerable, raw state, and to welcome someone to hold you.

Natalie Evans: 4:00

Yeah, I get chills Now saying that. Do you feel like you might have known that before you had a baby or after you have a baby? You really feel that more?

Natalie Evans: 4:13

I think it took me having a child and going through it myself. Yes, to really feel it more, but I did always feel it. It was always there, but it took me going through it.

Natalie Evans: 4:25

But as the recipient of that inviting someone in. So, as a birthing person, do you feel that it's such a sacred space to invite someone into? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Natalie Evans: 4:38

I was very picky and choosy about who I welcomed into my birth space, like your vibe. Yeah, I love you so much, but you're not welcome. I love you, you can come after, but to be in the thick of it, yes, yeah.

Natalie Evans: 4:51

I was very picky and choosy. I think that's really important to talk about because I have had in the past I used to host these doula nights at wellness center that I used to work at when I first started practicing these doula nights at wellness center that I used to work at when I first started practicing and we had the open house. You could meet all the practitioners and I was there as a doula and I ended up meeting this group of people that wanted to meet with me after. And one of the girls that I actually met with that night has been a town crier of mine since then. Like she's had two kids with me and she still refers to me. But there was one person, one couple, that I met with privately. They all wanted a meet and greet, because I always start with a meet and greet.

Natalie Evans: 5:34

I think it's important to feel the person's energy and I just felt so uncomfortable in their space and I don't know what it was Like. I can't tell you what it was. I just felt like there is no way I'm going to be able to quiet that part of me that feels this like discomfort, to be able to give her what she needs, and I do think that's a skill you learn the more you're in the birth space and also as you get a little bit older, to soften your personality, to make somebody else's shine. And I obviously wasn't very good at it at that time. But I said, I just don't feel the connection and I'm really sorry but I don't think I'm the right doula for you.

Natalie Evans: 6:16

Here's a couple of numbers. And the mom was so hurt, she cried and I felt so bad and so guilty. And I have done it a couple of other times after that as well, but that was like my first time and I still think about it. I can still see her face. I can still see her tears, but I really didn't think I could show up for them. And I do think that reading the energy of the person who's coming into that space with you is really, really important. But I don't think a lot of people do the meet and greets with that in mind.

Natalie Evans: 6:48

Yeah, because they just want to say yes, everyone. Just want, like your first, someone reaches out to you to support them. You want to be like yeah, and also vice versa, vice versa, yeah.

Natalie Evans: 6:57

Vice versa You're sitting and you're like this doula's credentials is beautiful, she has the experience and so I want her without saying. Can we go for a walk and a tea to see if I'm the right fit for you?

Natalie Evans: 7:10

Yeah, yeah, see if you can really soften into that person.

Deborah: 7:13

Yeah

Deborah: 7:13

, if you can't be fully wild, messy, vulnerable, then your birthing hormones are going to be disrupted during birth for sure, yeah, yeah, I think that's a very valid point, absolutely Okay. So tell me a little bit about what do you want moving forward. Like, what are you excited about the most Postpartum birth, all of it?

Natalie Evans: 7:38

All of it. I'm so excited for all of it and I'm kind of trusting what's to come. Yes, yeah, I'm just I'm excited. I don't know what to expect moving forward and life is always going to pivot and shift, but I just can't wait to hold people and hold space for them. Yeah, and like, I love postpartum work as well. Postpartum, we put so much prep into our birth and then we're like whoa, I need help postpartum too prep into our birth, and then we're like whoa, I need help, postpartum too.

Deborah: 8:09

Yeah, I always find that what have you done to prepare for postpartum? Not too much, really. My nursery's ready, my nursery's ready, all my clothing is washed yeah, but really for mom.

Speaker 3: 8:17

It's like I just want to hold all the new moms and tell them they're doing great. Because in the thick of it, when you're in it, you're like, especially your first time around, you're like what am I doing?

Natalie Evans: 8:28

yeah, and with no sleep. The second guessing, the imposter syndrome the hell of I know sits in so much bigger. Yeah, but you get a good night's sleep and you're told you're doing great.

Speaker 3: 8:42

Yeah, it's important yeah, and your instincts are also right. Like I'll get texts like I thought it was this way and like I'm googling, like I'm looking into it more. I'm like, no, your first way was the right way, and like you're doing it. So I really want to help people like tap into their instincts too, because, like with social media and google and having all this info, it's amazing. But it's too much, too much and it just pulls us further from our innate knowing. We know how to mother our children, so I'm excited for it all.

Natalie Evans: 9:13

I just want to support as many families as I can and let moms know they're rocking it so far, besides your own birth, because I do feel like my own births are my most special and memorable. But what is one moment in birth whether it's your experience with a birth that you've attended, or a story that we've debriefed, or with another person's story but what is it that is like, really fires you up, makes you want to take on the world?

Speaker 3: 9:46

Oh, what doesn't fire me up and get me excited?

Natalie Evans: 9:50

There's got to be one thing that you've seen or heard that makes you say I need to hang on to that because that needs to be a part of my why.

Speaker 3: 10:00

Honestly, I'd say the first birth I supported was with you and not to get into too much detail, but this mom really had to fight for what she wanted. She really had to advocate for herself. She had to fight. She didn't have to fight.

Natalie Evans: 10:13

She had to fight. So the story that you're talking about is the double feedback Double feedback and a lot of people don't know that you can go after that and a lot of people don't fully understand why you would. But the risk is told to you that going after a vaginal birth, after cesarean, it's double, and it is. It is double, but it is 0.5 the first time, and so that makes it 1% out of 200, which is not that big of a risk. But to me it could be a really high risk. To you it could be a very mild risk. It really just depends on what the mom wants.

Natalie Evans: 10:48

But she did. She fought hard and she got and I want to say this lightly, but she got shoved down, pushed down and so much pushback as she was fighting for that, and I love that. Her OB said listen, you really want this, you have to hire a doula. Yeah, which is really powerful, absolutely so. Is it that she fought for it and she got it, or is it that we had to step into the major application role? Is that what fired you up? Or is it the fact that she delivered vaginally?

Speaker 3: 11:20

I think the fact she got it and she pushed for what she needed, because we can be there to teach all the advocacy, yes, and we can go in there and support it, yes, but at the end of the day, that mom has to be the one to really put her feet down and say no. I'm doing this so like when that baby came out, yeah, and then just watching her reaction and then her just like being in after I was like this is why like this is yeah, do you still talk to her occasionally?

Natalie Evans: 11:50

yeah, yeah, she promotes everything on my social media.

Natalie Evans: 11:53

It could be anything she'll share all my stuff too, like when I finally announced that I was a doula to the world, she was yeah yeah, but and it's those moments that you give somebody their power right they will credit us over and over that we're the reason she got that. I didn't do shit. No, we were just there. I showed up and told her that she could literally here you go, this is what you need to say, this is what you can have. And she had to do all the hard work I do. I do think it's funny when they credit me or credit oh yeah, it's like I didn't do nothing. No, I was just here. Yeah, you did all the hard work. I do think it's funny when they credit me or credit us it's like I didn't do nothing.

Speaker 3: 12:27

No, I was just here. You did all the work, exactly, exactly.

Natalie Evans: 12:32

Yeah, I do have special thoughts about that birth as well, so I'm glad that's a part of your why and that's what keeps you fired up. I'm really happy that's the story that gets you fired up. I want to talk about what does trust mean in the birth room and what does it really mean to hold space and this came up yesterday in another talk that I had, and so let's just talk about it. It doesn't have to be just you answering. I don't want to put you on the spot, because holding space really means holding space. But what does trust mean for you in the birth room? Because we did talk about that earlier. Right, we talked about that. You need to find someone that you can fully be vulnerable with, and what does that look like and how do you plan on building that with someone?

Speaker 3: 13:17

I think just showing up and fully listening.

Natalie Evans: 13:20

For a home birth for me, I do a little bit more work and I make sure that I. You know, I'm look, I'm building a space where the mom can let go with me, and sometimes that's easy for me because they're on my massage table. Yeah, I watch it happen. Exactly, I see it happen and I'm like I know at that point I can tap into that. Yeah, but a lot of doulas as doulas, we do two prenatal visits. What is we do two prenatal visits? What do we do? What can we do? How will we do it in that moment? And so it's the same. It's with your kids, it's the same idea. So I think that's what I'm trying to ask. What are our skill set? What have we been taught as doulas? To build trust. And you already said it. You said just listening, doing what she wants, even though we may have our own bias. Yeah, it's not about us.

Speaker 3: 14:06

We leave our bias at the door, yeah, and we just trust that she knows what she needs. Yes, and just advocate for that at the end of the day, fully being on her team, yeah, and not making any little oh, what about trying this? Or X, y and Z? It's no, we're're gonna do it your way. Yeah, and like just holding that energy throughout the whole time and I always like to give a nice warm hug if they're huggers, like. I just really try and keep that eye contact, like really listen and being fully present with them. Yeah, because I find that this might just be for me. But, as expected, moms, you're excited, you're like want to share, like your plans and this and that, and people just they're not really listening. And you're like, ok, I'm going through this huge moment in my life and you're not even listening to me as I talk to you.

Natalie Evans: 15:00

I need you to hear how many times I've peed today. And it is true, that is a part of building trust, right? Yeah, I think in your prenatal visit you will work on that. Yeah, I think that trust is something that you continue to build throughout the whole relationship, even in the birth space and after the birth space, and I think the first time that you show up for that person in a true, genuine way, the trust is started.

Speaker 3: 15:24

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 15:24

Yeah, yeah, I agree, yeah Is there something that is driving you to make change as a doula. Ooh, there's so much, I think my big thing is like I really want birth to be something that women do and not something that happens to them. Oh, my OB is letting me do this, or my OB won't let me go past 39 weeks, or my mid, whatever won't let me. No, you call the shots here. This is your journey and we're going to shape it to how you want it, and we'll go through all the risks versus benefits and discuss what questions to ask or how to go around what rules your OB has.

Natalie Evans: 16:08

But yeah, that's probably what really drives me, the biggest change maker that you want.

Speaker 3: 16:14

Yeah, the biggest. I just want women to feel empowered in their birth and things come up during birth. Things always come up. It's being in charge of how we go from there right and like in the right ways.

Natalie Evans: 16:26

yeah your birth plan is going to change. You can make a birth plan until the cows come home and you can have it minute by minute broken down, but you have to pivot. You have to be able to pivot from every single space, and whatever it is that you have on your paper, you have to be able to pivot from it, because anything can change, and so not being able to pivot makes it really challenging to have true physiological birth, for sure.

Speaker 3: 16:51

Yeah, I think just I talked to so many women about just their experience and there's a lot of trauma and there's a lot of things that happened to them that they didn't want to happen, a lot of things that happened to them that they didn't want to happen. No, and I think we just need to like normalize, like informed consent, getting all the deets and actually being walked through, like it takes two seconds to walk someone through hey, we're gonna do this, if that's okay, or we can try this.

Speaker 3: 17:17

But yeah, I really want, I want women to take control and I just want women to feel held. And yeah, because it's so brushed off like childbirth, postpartum. It's so brushed off like everyone's so excited. You tell them you're pregnant oh, my gosh, like I'm so happy blah, blah, blah. And then you birth this whole child, yeah, and then it's crickets, yeah, or can't wait to come meet the baby, and then mom's not held. So it's really just. I just want to hold the whole.

Natalie Evans: 17:47

I was talking to a pelvic floor physio last week and we were talking about that. You know, as medical practitioners like and with a clinical practice, how do we support the postpartum phase, and something that I've created is I do like a postpartum six-week guide. So basically, this is your guide to your six-week checkup and she says she does something similar, but she sees them at the five-week mark and then if there's anything going on they can bring it to their OBGYN and then they're not discharged from their care. Because if you do get discharged at that six-week and they didn't do an internal check and something's wrong, too bad, you have to wait, then you have to get another referral.

Natalie Evans: 18:28

But if you get that five-week checkup with a pelvic floor physiotherapist, so she's like no, you see me at five weeks before you go to see your OB. And I'm like, oh my God, that is so brilliant, it's perfect. But as clinical practitioners and as doulas, we need to prepare moms for that so that they can get what they need postpartum. But it's like hacking the system and it's terrible that we have to do that. One of my moms called me yesterday and she said to me do you know anything about if I wanted to meet with an OB here in the city? She had a specific one in mind. I want to talk to them. I'm not pregnant and I want to talk to them about what the plan is for me moving forward, because she's had two very medically high risk pregnancies and they've been almost exactly the same and now she's thinking about having another child. But she wants to know how they're going to track everything to make sure nothing goes wrong.

Natalie Evans: 19:25

I said to her I don't know. You can call them and ask if you can meet with them. And the receptionist said absolutely not. You can't get in to see us until you're pregnant. I will pay out of my pocket. Nope, he doesn't do that. I'm like so you can't even interview them? No, you can't even get to know how they would support you until you're actually expecting. But she wants to know before she actually is expecting, because she wants to know if that's the path for her to actually have another child or not. Wow, yeah.

Speaker 3: 19:56

That is so upsetting to hear.

Natalie Evans: 19:57

That is so upsetting. Meanwhile we're doing free bean greens. Not that we're medical professionals, but yeah, Wow.

Speaker 3: 20:05

You get to meet me, you get to say no, you get, yeah, it is such a disservice and interviewing your care practice like your primary care physician is key in having the birth you want, in my opinion.

Natalie Evans: 20:16

Also, nobody also thinks about the fact that you can go online and you can look up their actual file.

Natalie Evans: 20:22

Yeah, like every medical practitioner who has a license. Please, if you hear nothing else about this interview, please hear this that you can go online, same as me. You can go to the College of Massage Therapists of Ontario. Type in my name, debra Kuhn, with CDs, and it'll tell you if I've ever had a restriction on my license. And there is a restriction on my license. I was late payment for my renewal what the heck, debra? In 2013. And so it says it on there. It says suspended. Is that you? We're so busy.

Speaker 3: 20:57

We're on call. I'm on call for a birth, so I didn't shut my phone off completely.

Natalie Evans: 21:01

Yes, sorry, no that's part of it. I think that's important for people to know. We both have our phones on because we're on call. Anyway, it was 2013 and I got my license suspended for just that overnight.

Natalie Evans: 21:13

But yeah so it says it on my license and people don't think about that. You ask your friends who's the best OB. Also, if their birth is not something that you want for yourself, why would you see the same OB? Absolutely. But you can find it out just by going to their governing body. You can find it out by the Midwives of.

Speaker 3: 21:30

Ontario. You can. That's what I was going to ask. Yes, and.

Natalie Evans: 21:32

Corey talks about that. So much, check out my file. Yeah, midwives of Ontario, every nurse has a two.

Speaker 3: 21:40

Oh, I didn't know, nurses did too.

Natalie Evans: 21:41

Yes, so very important when you're on the L&D floor, to get their name on their badge so that if you do have a problem with them, you can report it. It's important that women know that they can do that. It was something that I was talking about with a detective yesterday and, yeah, she's just in my circle. We were talking about informed consent, having your sexual integrity compromised, and she was talking about birth. She's a mom herself and how giving birth and being traumatized in birth can set you up to have your sexual integrity compromised in other situations. We were talking about in regards to massage therapy. But think about how they don't ask for consent to check you and they just dive in. I'm going to check you now and then all of a sudden, you're on a massage table and you get your breasts accidentally grazed and you're super uncomfortable, but you're like, yeah, big deal. I'm okay with that happening, because I also had my vagina checked last month and nobody asked me for permission then. So I guess this might be normal, this is the norm. Yeah, isn't that devastating? Yeah, like, when you compare the two, I'm not saying having your breast grazed in massage therapy is the same as being cervically checked without permission, but we were talking about how you can just learn to suppress those feelings of discomfort and asking for informed consent as a massage therapist like those things. It needs to be addressed in the moment. Like I accidentally grazed your breasts, I'm going to give you a minute. Are you okay for me to continue? Are you uncomfortable? Like it has to be addressed in the moment and I will tell you right now.

Natalie Evans: 23:22

Breast tissue on the massage table postpartum when your breasts are engorged, it's like Tetris anyway. So I think it's interesting how that whole clinical practice of how they run their business really affects healing postpartum Absolutely, and I think it's important for women know the hacks to get around it. So if anybody has questions about what I just suggested and that physiotherapist, please reach out to us, send us a message through fan mail or, obviously, through our social media. All right, let's get back to you, natalie. Okay, tell me a little bit about how you care for yourself after birth, because this is so important for people to understand how heavy like our work is. Like nothing else, I feel like I have the best job in the entire world.

Speaker 3: 24:12

Yeah, it can be even on the easy, even on the most beautiful, the most aligned births, yeah, there's still that debriefing that needs to happen and coming down that, like my first birth, I supported. I was riding a high for a week, yeah, and once I came down, I was like I need to like debrief this birth. Yeah, and I think that's huge. Yes, you actually told me like when we first started chatting, you were like you need a good therapist. Yeah, you were like I call mine on my way to my birth. I'm like we, we're gonna have to debrief soon. Yeah, and that's huge. Yeah, debriefing and having colleagues to chat with.

Speaker 3: 24:48

Like you, I spoke with you about that birth and but whatever, yeah, so I'm full-time mom so I get back from a birth. I'm right back in mom mode, so I'm usually trying to set up child care. Yeah, so either a meme or my auntie comes over so I can get some rest. Yeah, because I got home at 3 am after that birth and Walter was up at 6 am and I was like, okay, let's be a great mom today, no sleep. So, yeah, trying to fill my cup up in that sense where I'm getting some rest and feeling some support from family or my partner. But yeah, you can't pour from an empty cup, especially for 12, 13 hours. No, that's right.

Natalie Evans: 25:34

And actually, if you really think about that, you know that birth was a lot longer than that right. We got there like at 8 am and we didn't get home until 3. We're looking at 18, 19 hours.

Speaker 3: 25:46

And then I think of my birth. I labored for 36 hours, so like it could be anywhere. First time mom, it's like anywhere from 24 to 38 hours and if you're there the whole time.

Natalie Evans: 25:58

Yeah, kelly and I talked about this yesterday and I don't want to do that. I don't ever want to go for 36 hours. I'm not going to be my fresh self and also we can get triggered. We can get triggered about the whole fact that we have that life at home. So why, no matter what, after 24 hours, I'm going to say at 18, I'm like it's not that I want to tap out, I'm in it. Yeah, I don't want to. You would have to drag me away. But I feel like being able to bring in another doula or a fresh set of eyes to say what am I missing? Yeah, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this. This is clinically what's happening. What am I missing? Yeah, and have someone be able to like feedback and play devil's advocate with the situation and what's happening, to make fresher suggestions. I feel like that's something that I have wanted my whole doula career and have not technically had until now here and there, a few people that have popped in but not stayed and I really feel like having the agency and the collective is really going to help us with that. Oh yeah. So yeah, having a therapist is so important.

Natalie Evans: 27:11

I was at a birth one time I didn't go back to birth. For eight months. I had people that I was on contract with and nothing really went wrong. It was it didn't go textbook and I was still a fresh doula and there was no fatalities or no death or anything like that. It was just that I was nervous and scared and I got triggered for sure. Eight months I didn't go back to. I had people on contract that I said no to, gave them back their money, helped them find another doula and I think at that time if I had a really great therapist, maybe I wouldn't have needed eight months because I was doing it. I had a therapist but we weren't talking about that. But I really love that we have that for each other. I love doing that with Corey because she can medically show me what was happening in eyes that I don't always see. So I do think that it's important. What's your favorite food after, I don't know, I guess not just coming home from a birth, but even after late night or whatever.

Speaker 3: 28:17

You know, what I love me is a bagel sub Like from.

Natalie Evans: 28:20

Subway.

Speaker 3: 28:21

Firehouse subs.

Natalie Evans: 28:22

Firehouse subs.

Speaker 3: 28:23

The hook and ladder sub at Firehouse. Yeah, I love. I think after my favorite like snacks for during labor is an RX bar energy bowl in every doula bag. Yeah every doula bag is an RX bar yeah, but no big old sub if I can make it and they're open when I leave. Yeah, yeah.

Natalie Evans: 28:47

I used to always do penalty box. I was right next to her.

Natalie Evans: 28:51

Yeah, I don't know why. Someone brought it to me after I had my first kid, so good yeah. And also my husband fed pizza to the whole labor and delivery floor, but I'm not a big fan of pizza. Okay, pizza to the whole labor and delivery floor, but I'm not a big fan of pizza and so didn't get anything for me. But the whole floor got fed. It was just a slip. And I don't know if you've ever seen at Zare's they have these macaroon cookies. They're like the coconut and some of them have like chocolate on them. Somebody brought a tray of those and because I couldn't eat pizza, I ate like 25 of those. It was bad. Poor kid's breast milk must have been like loaded with coconut.

Natalie Evans: 29:29

Delicious I don't even think she likes coconut now.

Deborah: 29:33

We ruined it for her.

Natalie Evans: 29:36

That's funny. That's funny. Okay, I want to ask you about what has it meant to you to be a part of our team?

Speaker 3: 29:44

Oh, it's been such a privilege. Having you to lean on and being mentored by you feels like such a privilege, yeah, and getting to know Kelly, like our relationship is still growing. But I think just having other doulas to lean on and knowing I'm struggling right now with X, y and Z or I need some support here. And it's let's come up with a plan together. Yes, yeah, that sense of community and I think that's what's lacking in the doula world is not having other doulas to lean on. Do you think that's about competition?

Natalie Evans: 30:16

I don't know. I don't know. Or is it that already established doulas are not willing to do the work without getting paid? Yeah, it's hard to say, because I do think it's fair that everybody gets paid. I think everyone should get paid Absolutely, but also some of it. If anyone ever asked me, deborah, can I pick your brain on something, I would say to them yeah, tell me in five weeks what your schedule looks like and I will find time for you.

Speaker 3: 30:46

Yeah.

Natalie Evans: 30:47

I can't do it last minute. That's just not a part of my world anymore. Yeah, Because of my family first of all, but also now the doula agency. So I'm on call for that all the time.

Speaker 3: 30:57

But yeah, yeah, I think it's also a level of not knowing that there's other doulas. Like when I first started out, I thought I knew of maybe three or four doulas in the area, yeah, and then, once you get into the world, I was like whoa, there's 25 of us, yes, so I think for me it was like not knowing, yes, and not having the those connections made. Yeah, but yeah, it could also be like a competition thing. I think it takes a lot of. You have to hold a lot of space as well. You being in your role that you're in right now, like with kelly and I, it's you're carrying a lot of space for us, yeah, and for all of our questions, and I've reached out to you, send you a voice note and then you get back to me.

Speaker 3: 31:37

yeah, of course, it's also like you've committed to that, like not everyone thinks you can hold that space for other dealers as well yeah, no, especially if they're still in it.

Natalie Evans: 32:03

Doing it full time, yeah, and then holding space for it? Yeah, absolutely what we need more of. Or can we go about this in a different way? Right, and how do we make change at the bottom line instead of because right now, we're making change one mom at a time? Yeah, I'm slowly working on other things behind the scenes, but I wouldn't be able to do that if you guys weren't working on the mothers one at a time and we also wouldn't be able to take on as many moms as we are taking on.

Speaker 3: 32:31

No, if we didn't have us as a group like I know how many I can take on in a time.

Speaker 3: 32:36

Like you know, there's only so much one doula can do. That's when there's three of us. Yes, however much we decide to grow, yeah, you can just take on that many more clients so we can reach that many more families. So I think at the end of the day, it's really bringing us back to where we want to be and it kind of brings us back to our why yes, and why we are doulas is to help as many families and women as we can. I think that this just really sets us up for that.

Natalie Evans: 33:05

I do. I do too. That's why I started there. Yeah, tell me something that you wish, besides someone to mentor them, what do you wish more doulas had access to in their own practices? Do you think the most, the biggest change maker for yourself and your doula practice, is having someone who's already walked the path? Or is it a skill set? Or is it education? What is it that you feel that you wish more doulas had?

Speaker 3: 33:35

I can only speak for myself. I did my training online. Most doula trainings that I found were online, yes, so I think having that hands-on practical yes space to practice, especially with someone who's been doing it for 20 years, yeah, so that was huge. Our comfort measures, training that we did, or workshop, that was such an awesome class. Oh my gosh, it was amazing and I feel so much more prepared going in. I felt prepared before, but then I'm like whoa, this just topped it off.

Natalie Evans: 34:05

Yeah, just hand placement softening your body to hold their body right. Instead of I'm here, let me just touch you all over your body. Yeah, did you like that?

Speaker 3: 34:14

Did you like this? No?

Natalie Evans: 34:16

Yeah, like it's such a fine skill to learn and it's definitely not taught well in the virtual class.

Speaker 3: 34:22

No, and like they do their best at least with Dona they did such a great job, like my trainer was amazing, but it's still not the same. It's still not the same. It's still not the same, no. So I think that, yeah, having the space to actually practice what we're learning and also just having that shoulder to lean on, it's like hey, I'm in this situation, what?

Deborah: 34:42

should I do here.

Speaker 3: 34:43

Yeah, if I like knowing I can call you mid-birth and be like hey, we're stalled. We've tried x, y and z, yeah what am I missing?

Natalie Evans: 34:50

what am I?

Speaker 3: 34:50

missing and then to have you be like oh, I, I try leaning forward a version or whatever.

Natalie Evans: 34:55

Yeah, or I don't know, I can't think straight. Let me call my support system. Yeah, and then that's what I love. There's so many connections that I've made in the city that I've made those late night phone calls saying I need help. Yeah, a pharmacist, can I give the mom this? What can I do here? She's on this. She has mastitis. Can we give Tylenol, any of those things? Medically, that is not worth going to the ER five days postpartum, 4 am, exactly. Yeah, you need a team for that stuff and I really love that. I have that and I'm really happy to be able to share that in the agency. All right, so you're sitting with a pregnant person, maybe someone in their third trimester, unsure of what's ahead. What would you say to them? What do you want every birthing person to hear? Your body?

Speaker 3: 35:46

and baby are wise and know what they're doing and they're working together to get this baby on the other side. And it's hard. You're big, you feel big, everything hurts, you're uncomfortable. But last call for epithelial I love her induction. But, yeah, just trust your baby, trust your body and you're gonna. You're gonna have your baby in your arms so soon. Yeah, yeah, and you're going to get to step into this new role. That's awesome, yeah.

Natalie Evans: 36:15

I have a mom right now. She's a few days overdue and we're messaging every day, two or three times a day, and she's not my doula client, she's one of my clinical patients and I just love her. I love that she's not afraid to ask me anything in a text message and I wish every woman could do that. I might not have a contract with you, but if I can answer a question for you, please send me the text message. Also, we're starting to host this Doula Deborah on Demand and I feel like that's a lot of what people could use.

Natalie Evans: 36:52

Her question to me yesterday was I just want to trust my body on this one, like I went with the medical system.

Natalie Evans: 37:01

I went with a medical system suggesting my last pregnancy and I really just want to trust my body on this pregnancy and I'm like are you asking me for advice on how to safely say no to an induction?

Natalie Evans: 37:13

And I get all caps yes, and so sometimes it's just about that. It's about at 39 weeks, 40 weeks, 41 weeks, whatever it is that you are, there's no way any doula is going to ask you to risk your baby. What we want you to know is an option, is that if you are comfortable. We can help guide you through getting through one or two more days and if there's nothing medically wrong with you or baby, then having a conversation with your primary care provider is something that you can make happen so that you feel that it's safe to go one or two more days and we can guide you on that. I talk about it all over my Instagram, I talk about it all over my podcast as well, and I talk about it in the clinic every single day. But at the end of the day, it's the mom's choice and if she's uncomfortable and they wave the white induction flag, it's pretty tempting.

Speaker 3: 38:09

And be able to pick your day. Yeah, I want to meet my baby this day and I totally get that For myself. Just going back, I went into labor at 42 weeks. I started 42 weeks on the dot and I was going wild that last two weeks. I would wake up every morning, curb, walk, walk around the block a few times, ball everything, everything and I was driving myself crazy and I didn't enjoy those last few weeks because I was so focused on trying to put yourself trying to put myself into labor and the one day that I finally surrendered to it is the day my water broke.

Speaker 3: 38:48

I'd go into the hospital for my ultrasounds. They were checking, they were doing a stress test and checking the placenta and amniotic fluid, because I'm running out of fluid and whatnot?

Natalie Evans: 38:56

biophysical profile biophysical profile.

Speaker 3: 38:59

So, yeah, I did that. I did three of those in my last week just to get them off me, because I was like keep doing these, because I'm not getting induced. Yeah, and every time I step foot into the hospital they're like why don't you just get in? But, like the pressure behind it, they were like why are you still pregnant? Yeah, like because I'm good, yeah, my baby's good, I'm good and I'm like how's my test? How'd my test come back? And it was like perfect, yeah, so you also have that outside pressure. It's like my neighbors across the street, you're still pregnant. I'd be like I'm going to fight you right here. But yeah, there's that outside pressure and I think when we just come back into our bodies and talk to your baby, talk to yeah, and just really stay rooted in your body is wise, your baby is wise and you guys will figure this out, yeah, I love that.

Natalie Evans: 39:51

That's great advice for anyone in their last weeks of pregnancy. All right, I want to do something a little bit fun. Okay, quick fire round. Whatever comes to mind. What's the essential item in your doula bag? My hands, literally my hands, yeah, same. Not in my doula bag, no. So your go-to comfort food after a long birth? We long birth. We already know that legal sub a birth mantra you love my baby, and body are wise, yeah, love it the most surprising thing you've learned as a doula.

Speaker 3: 40:19

Oh, what is the most surprising thing I've learned as a doula? I think a lot of the stats, like a lot of the statistics around, like cesarean rates, breastfeeding rates in lidsor estates county, like I think a lot of those, yeah, are surprising, are surprising.

Natalie Evans: 40:32

People are always shocked when I fire those out.

Speaker 3: 40:34

Yeah.

Natalie Evans: 40:35

And your favorite part of supporting someone in labor.

Speaker 3: 40:37

Oh, watching them step into their primal yeah, that primal part of labor. Yeah when they really just get into it. It's like you're awesome.

Natalie Evans: 40:45

Yeah, you're like okay, we're in it, now we? Yeah, that's awesome. Natalie, thank you so much for showing up with so much truth and tenderness today. It's doulas like you who remind us that birth work isn't just about contractions and pushing, and it's new doulas like you that show me and teach me all about the fire.

Speaker 3: 41:05

Thank you.

Natalie Evans: 41:06

So if you're listening and thinking, I want someone like Natalie at my birth head to the link in our show notes to learn more about our team at Pelvic Love Doula Agency, and you can find Natalie at PureEssenceDoulaCare on Instagram. And until next time. Thank you so much for being with us today, and I will talk to you all soon.

Speaker 3: 41:29

Thank you so much.

Deborah: 41:30

Talk to you soon. Okay, let's all soon. Thank you so much. Talk to you soon. Okay, let's talk soon.